I’m stunned by the otherwise trans supportive queer folks who are buying into the anti-trans arguments around the cotton ceiling. This is coming from a woman who wrote a letter to the UN asking that gender identity non-discrimination not be instated. She makes no attempt to hide the fact that she has a strong anti-trans agenda. Her writings and the comments her friends leave on them are bordering on hate speech. Bottom line: there is a huge difference between what trans activists are saying when we talk about the cotton ceiling and what she claims we’re saying.I can understand anti-trans folks who pick up her argumentation, but everyone else? I mean, check your sources. If NARTH or Focus on the Family was railing about some horrible presentation Ellen Degeneres or Lady Gaga was giving, wouldn’t you be extremely skeptical? Wouldn’t you want to hear directly from Ellen/Gaga what she was doing, rather than take NARTH’s description of it on face value? Please use the same discretion here.
Like · Tuesday at 8:24pm
15 people like this.
COMMENTER: But strawmen make it easier to shoot your opponent down. :PTuesday at 8:30pm · Like · 1
COMMENTER: Okay, I have to admit that I hadn’t heard that term before recently and was so confused, thinking it was related to some sort of menstrual/tampon related hierarchy of womanhood. So I did some googling and think I understand better now.ANYWAY, yeah. What you said.
Tuesday at 8:36pm · Like
COMMENTER: This whole cotton ceiling thing seems to be a tempest in a teapot anyways. O.O
Tuesday at 8:43pm · Like
COMMENTER: Tobi, can you post link? Need to research this.
Tuesday at 10:15pm · Like
COMMENTER: ahh found it on your wall
Tuesday at 10:17pm · Like
Tobi Hill-Meyer There’s a few things that you could read. The on that inspired this line of thought was http://1ladyface.blogspot.com/2012/03/i-dont-hate-you-and-neither-does-my.html. Unfortunately, I haven’t found a good complete presentation of the concept — everything being written now is reactive or focusing on refuting the strawperson argument rather than a general overview. The place it was discussed most in depth was the No Apologies conference in Toronto, and the keynote presentations were filmed but are not yet online. I’m eagerly awaiting them. Yesterday at 12:52am · Like · 1
COMMENTER: After review I think original email exchange, and the analogy are all a mess. This realyl isn’t helpful at all. Any valid points to be discussed are understandably overshadowed by this impossibly misguided notion of a “cotton ceiling.” I think the queer community as a whole would be best seved if Ms Deveraux recanted the usage, stated she does not speak for the feelings of all trans* folks, and stepped back to allowe a more sane discourse to emerge that can hopefully be framed in less loaded language. And yes, I am trans and this impacts me. I am trans, thid is not internalized self loathing, and this sounds like entitled bullshit. Yesterday at 1:52am · Like
Tobi Hill-Meyer I wonder how much re-branding would help at this point. The metaphor was never supposed to explain the concept by itself, but to be a tagline under which to mentally file the larger discussion of multiple related issues. So how do we explain that the tagline means something different to me than it means to someone else and that we should focus on the larger discussion rather than interpretations of a metaphor that’s already making reference to another awkward metaphor? If we come up with a different name for the concept, there’s no way that Brennan or any of her followers will back down, they’ll just launch a new campaign against the new term, and use it as evidence that we’re “sneaky” “deceiving” and as proof that the term- and the concept – is “rapey.”Ultimately, I don’t think we gain anything by capitulating to those who will never compromise with us. They may feign ignorance, but they fully know what they’re doing and are willing to be disengenious or do whatever else they need to in order to fight against trans acceptance. What we need to do is realize that they aren’t our audience and never will be, and direct our work and our thoughts to those who will listen. One name or another won’t make a huge difference if someone is willing to listen to the full discussion, and those who aren’t willing to listen won’t listen no matter what we name it. Yesterday at 4:51am · Like · 1
COMMENTER: I think the problem is the name as well as the presentation in the emails themselves. The name invokes images of breaking through and into something, unfortunate… because it all to mind images and acts and attitudes which are “rapey.” It feels cohersive and gross. Above all, I think its offensive to women both cis and trans.So, transwomen aren’t seen as desirable in some cicles.. well it will change with greater acceptance and time. It will come as more transwomen interact in queer women’s circles *as* women. it comes with normalization. I imagine the feelings are similar to how African American women may have felt in the 60s as objects of fetish among men outside their own race, for example. Interracial relationships are more normalized now than they were in the 50s and 60s but that came through exposure, time, and education. Its now a “normal” relationship rather than a fetish or oddity
The whole “cotton ceiling” is a poorly chosen analogy. Also, changes in attitudes like this aren’t going to come through tactics like that. It looks and feels shaming and disingenuous to cis women and frankly I think they have every right to be put off by it. As a transwoman, I am deeply offended by it and saddened to think its an attitude that is now being taken up and defended by spokespeople for this community. No one says that trans-women have a right to be desired. Cis women certainly don’t and spend many spend their lives feeling undesirable for a variety of externally imposed reasons. By all means work to change that but try- for gods sake – to consider the language and how it might be offensive to even allies. I don’t care how “radfems” feel about this. I feel it is offensive and presumptuous to women in general. This is an unfortunate turn of phrase and a misguided complaint I for one ont want to see ascribed to be a community wide attitude. 22 hours ago · Like
COMMENTER: My wife and I are both on the trans* spectrum, and she and many if the transfeminie people I have spoken about this with have said it is hard to be seen as a viable dating partner by cis women, and I feel this is a real problem that does deserve to be talked about. Just hoping for time alone to change it is a bit overly optimistic in my estimation. I think talking through things is a valid way to reach understanding and gain acceptance. Even if the verbiage isn’t your favorite, it brings the problem to light and fosters that discussion. I believe all human beings are worthy of being seen as desirable and having a place in a community where they feel most comfortable and at home, irrespective of their gender, skin color, bodytype, etc., and I think all anyone is asking for is to not be dismissee automatically as a lesbian and a potential date because of the configuration of their genitals and chromosomal makeup. It might seem like off putting language, but it’s giving people a voice. 22 hours ago · Like
Tobi Hill-Meyer ”As a transwoman, I am deeply offended by it and saddened to think its an attitude that is now being taken up and defended by spokespeople for this community. No one says that trans-women have a right to be desired.”That right there is the most difficult part of the smear campaign to overcome. I don’t think you’ll find any of the spokespeople for our community defending the idea that trans women have a right to be desired. That’s not what I’m doing, I don’t believe that’s what Drew or Morgan have been doing.
From my perspective, the majority of the issues in this discussion have to do with messages internalized by trans women. Trapped in our own underwear even at parties where everyone else is naked. As well as the social mechanisms that will actually enforce that occasionally – i.e. if the trans woman at the party does take her underwear off too, she’ll be yelled at for invading, trigging cis women survivors, etc, etc.
The part that has to do with cis women is not who the desire but a) how they discuss that desire, and b) the assumptions they (often falsely) make about that desire, and c) the overall community dynamic arising out of a and b.
For example, I once was in a discussion with someone who said “I’m attracted to people of ALL genders, bio women and trans men.” (emphasis theirs) When I asked they said they weren’t attracted to trans women. So of course I and a few other trans women got upset. Immediately we were accused of feeling entitled to being desired, we were told it’s a sign of male privilege, that it’s creepy, etc, etc. It was incredibly frustrating because I had no desire for that person. All I wanted was to be considered a person with a gender. If that person wasn’t attracted to trans women, so be it, but don’t declare you’re attracted to people of all genders. It’s invisibilizing, demoralizing, and just plain rude. I’m running out of steam so I’ll stop here, but that’s the kind of thing I’m referencing when I talk about the cotton ceiling. Not the right or entitlement for that person to desire me, but for them to not say fucked up things about me in the process of not desiring me. 15 hours ago · Like · 1
COMMENTER: “well it will change with greater acceptance and time” yeah, that’s what they’ve been saying for years now. guess what, trans women in the queer community aren’t new. trans women have been fighting for our rights since before cis gays have. compton’s in 1966 and stonewall in 69 predate the entire second wave of feminism and radical lesbian separatism. cis women began systematically excluding us from both the queer liberation movement (that was started by trans women of color) and the women’s liberation movement around 1971. 14 hours ago · Like
COMMENTER: Well put Tobi. I can see the perspective re-framing it this way. The analogy is out there and the discussion should happen. I do feel like it loaned itself to being misinterpreted at bet and misrepresented at worst but pandora’s box and all. I do hope good discussion comes from it and the signal rises above the noise. 14 hours ago · Like
COMMENTER: yes … but there are more transwomen in queer spaces now than there were in the 90s due to education and visibility. People have experienced tranwomen as, well, people! I understand your frustration and your point but I think that openness, visibiloty, and dialogue change things. I get frustrated when I see what I consider to be a poorly conceived analogy “muddy the waters” as it were. 14 hours ago · Like
COMMENTER: and there is a Freudian slip in my own post which does highlight your point Jules. Transwomen are experienced as “people” and not “women” who are viable partners. I take your point it is important to discuss this. I just hope, like I said, the signal rises above the noise because the discussion is packaged in the worst wrapper I have ever seen 🙂 14 hours ago · Like
COMMENTER: “Trapped in our own underwear even at parties where everyone else is naked. As well as the social mechanisms that will actually enforce that occasionally…” I feel like this is an overlooked aspect of this argument, and well-put. 14 hours ago · Like
COMMENTER: Do transmasculine people find this same issue with queer men? I often wonder how trans men find themselves treated as potential partners in gay men’s circles. 3 hours ago · Like
Tobi Hill-Meyer Yes and no, the same dynamic certainly happens, but it’s a very different context. For example, there is significantly less concern about “intruders” or “deception.” \ 3 hours ago · Like
COMMENTER: Im writing from New Zealand so Im a little isolated. How common are play parties that are geared toward trans/cis interaction – meaning focus on people who are attracted to genderqueer bodies or people who are not as preoccupied with these feelings of “invasion”… just a thought… Lead and change by example maybe 🙂 6 minutes ago · Like
COMMENTER: its a drop in the pool, I know but the blogging around this has haunted me for a couple days and been intensely triggery…espcially the factcheckme blog which is just…. **shudder** 5 minutes ago · Like
ED. NOTE: This was sent to me by a “friend” on Tobi’s Facebook page. Zie indicated this was posted on Tobi’s Facebook wall, and zie did not appreciate Tobi’s willingness to bend the truth regarding the position I and other opponents of the Stereotyping Definition of Gender Identity take with regard to gender identity legislation. You can read about what we actually support in numerous places, including here. I will also note Tobi has put this same post on her Tumblr.
LOL at Brennan and her followers.
To Tobi – I have said in NUMEROUS places that it is the language of entitlement that pisses me off, and the appropriation of a metaphor that discusses something IMPORTANT (i.e., the ability of females to work) for use to discuss something wholly IRRELEVANT to civil rights (i.e., whether you get laid). CHANGE THE LANGUAGE AND STOP ACTING SO ENTITLED. Sheesh.
Once again, I will say – go have as much sex as you like! Enjoy! Go make like a bunny. Just stop telling Lesbians that we have some obligation to want to fuck you or anyone with a dick, because that’s not what Lesbians do! Easy peasy.
Tobi Translator: Hate speech = anything Tobi doesn’t agree with.
ALSO TOBI YOUR ENTIRE POST IS A STRAWMAN ARGUMENT AS I DON’T ACTUALLY OPPOSE ANTI-DISCRIMINATION PROTECTIONS FOR TRANS PEOPLE. I JUST OPPOSE FUCKING OVER FEMALES TO ACCOMPLISH THIS GOAL.
The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:
Cathy Brennan has position X (Cathy Brennan support an objective definition of gender identity, not a stereotyping one).
Tobi disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y (Cathy Brennan hates trans people). Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
• Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent’s position.
• Quoting an opponent’s words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent’s actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).
• Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person’s arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.
• Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
• Oversimplifying an opponent’s argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Tobi attacks position Y, concluding that Cathy Brennan is false/incorrect/flawed/a bigot.
This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.
BugBrennan, how many times does this have to be explained? The cotton ceiling metaphor is about *systematic devaluing* of trans women’s sexuality and potential as sexual partners. It is not about anyone’s individual sex life. It’s actually a very apt parallel with the glass ceiling metaphor, if you stop and think about it for a few minutes.
Helping women feel good about their bodies and empowered about their sexualities is a classic, age-old feminist struggle. If you don’t care about it, *you do not have to get involved.* You can focus on something else. What you are focusing on right now, though, is attacking women for having bodies that you don’t like and daring to ask others not to denigrate their sexuality. You may as well be the straight guy labelling sexually active women “dirty sluts,” or scribbling “no fatties” in personal ads, or whining, “eww, lesbians.”
Bahahaha!! NO, it’s NOT. Unlike women’s right to equal employment and professional credibility in the workplace, trans women are not entitled—individually or as a class— to have sex with “cis” lesbians, as they call us.
Let me tell you what I’ve been telling Avory: no one has an ethical or political responsibility to prioritize “gender identity” over and above everything else. It is not our obligation to agree that “gender” is more significant than sex. Radical feminists do not believe that another person’s subjectively asserted “gender identity” can (or should be expected to!) override lesbians’ deeply felt physical preferences. And we are not sorry if that “insults” some people *because* their expectations of us are UNREASONABLE.
Also. FEMINISM is not a sex party. FEMINISM is not an open-invitation ORGY. Feminism is about POLITICS– you know, social organization and structures. Keep your sexual entitlement OUT of our politics. Orgasms are NOT revolutionary or empowering and I’m sorry if you thought you were going to achieve social equality through fucking. That’s your bad for buying such a stupid idea.
And FURTHER: being a lesbian is not a prejudicial social construct to be overcome by expanding lesbians’ limited political consciousness around trans women’s “gender identity.” Indeed, many— if not most— lesbians are gender non-conforming themselves; and all lesbians openly defy the oppressive constructs of normative sexuality. It’s not a LESBIAN problem with gender non-conformity, it’s a TRANS inability to understand the MEANING OF WORDS.
If people have BODY issues, they need to learn to love themselves AS THEY ARE. Penises in dresses are penises in dresses. I don’t have a problem with that (gender non-conformity). I have a problem with penises in dresses demanding that I CALL THEM “WOMEN” or “FEMALE” or “LESBIAN” under shame of bigotry and transphobia.
“FEMINISM is not a sex party. FEMINISM is not an open-invitation ORGY.”
Yes. We are dealing with what are essentially the pomo equivalents of frat boys here.
(And we can all thank the sex-positive ideologues for the conflation of feminism with full-throttle 24/7 obligatory sexcapades!)
Women with bodies not like mine? You mean trans women with dicks, right?
I’m a lesbian – I’m not into that. That’s what “lesbian” means. Dykes don’t owe trans women sex. It’s not a political obligation. That’s the issue we have with the framing of this issue.
You enjoy all the ladystick you like!
Okay, I think this is the point of contention here… So many people do not believe people born with (and retaining, in some cases) penises can be women. This is damaging to the trans* population as a whole and shows flagrant disregard for the struggle transwomen in particular have to face on a daily basis to be treated with even the most basic respect and dignity, let alone to be seen as viable members of the lesbian community. So many of the transwomen I’ve known (as friends or as partners) have been hurt by people ridiculing them for a single part of their body that they have absolutely NO control over. There are many parallels to other issues relating to bodytype and skin color. I’m sorry that you find it hard to see this.
I mean, just using words like “ladystick” shows an intense lack of compassion (are you trying to bait people or hurt their feelings?) and it’s really disappointing that as someone with a voice in this conversation, you’d choose to take it there.
Um, a trans woman invented lady stick, do keep up, you will need to be smarter to be a successful Concern troll: http://leftytgirl.wordpress.com/2012/03/25/cathy-brennan-vs-the-cotton-ceiling/
Show us your ladystick, Jules, and be done with it.
“So many people do not believe people born with (and retaining, in some cases) penises can be women.”
I ACCEPT TRANS WOMEN AS WOMEN. I DO NOT ACCEPT THEM AS FEMALE. IF THEY WERE FEMALE THIS CONVERSATION WOULD NOT BE HAPPENING. A PENIS IS NOT A FEMALE ORGAN. ASK YOUR MOMMY WHERE BABIES COME FROM.
“This is damaging to the trans* population as a whole and shows flagrant disregard for the struggle transwomen in particular have to face on a daily basis to be treated with even the most basic respect and dignity, let alone to be seen as viable members of the lesbian community.”
UM, I AM SORRY THAT BIOLOGICAL REALITY MAKES TRANS PEOPLE SAD. IT MAKES FEMALES SAD TOO. ALSO, WELCOME TO WOMANHOOD.
“So many of the transwomen I’ve known (as friends or as partners) have been hurt by people ridiculing them for a single part of their body that they have absolutely NO control over.”
LESBIANS AREN’T RIDICULING TRANS WOMEN FOR BEING MALE AT BIRTH – WE ARE SIMPLY POINTING IT OUT. IT IS A FACT. SORRY.
“There are many parallels to other issues relating to bodytype and skin color. I’m sorry that you find it hard to see this.”
UM, NO, NOT REALLY. FEMALES SUFFER SPECIFIC HARM AS A CLASS BY VIRTUE OF OUR REPRODUCTIVE VULNERABILITY AT THE HANDS OF MALES. THAT’S NOT THE SAME AS “SOMEONE DOESN’T WANT TO FUCK ME BECAUSE I AM WHITE (OR BLACK OR FAT).” ARE YOU SAYING LESBIANS NEED TO LIKE DICK TOO TO PROVE THEY ARE NOT BIGOTS?
OMG, like, Cathy! You are like totally the coolest girl in 7th grade!! We simply hang on every word you say and take all our cues from you becuz, like, we don’t have any thoughts of our own (that just so happen to coincide with your analysis because we know rapey entitlement when we see it because we are female after all)!!!
Another Mindless Follower 🙂
LOL! Exactly. It’s *inconceivable* to these folks that anyone other than me and my two friends feel this way. Of course, the reality is almost every dyke I talk to about this – and that’s a lot – feels the EXACT same way I do, they are just smart enough not to say it out loud because they don’t want to deal with the whiny shit that will surely follow!
Hate speech! Bigot! Transphobic! You looked at me the wrong way! You don’t want to fuck my ladystick! Hater!
Tobi and her followers need to get a grip on reality and recognize it’s not transphobic to know what Female means. Half the planet is female. We know what it means.
Tobi, I respect you as a woman, but you are not female. Anyone watching your porn, I am told, can see that. Ahem.
There is a difference between biological sex and gender, and I’m sure you realize this. We’re talking about women-identified women being accepted in queer women’s spaces. That’s all.
Is it really necessary to attack someone’s anatomy because you don’t like what they have to say?
ED. NOTE – THIS LADY COINED LADY STICK. LOOK IT UP. http://leftytgirl.wordpress.com/2012/03/25/cathy-brennan-vs-the-cotton-ceiling/
ARE YOU KIDDING? YES WE KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SEX AND GENDER, YOU FOOL! WOMEN-IDENTIFIED WOMEN SPEAKS TO GENDER. WE DON’T CARE.
“, transwomen aren’t seen as desirable in some cicles.. well it will change with greater acceptance and time.”
Is this dude implying that homosexuality is a CHOICE?? I’m very happy to break his idiotic bubble. NO lesbians will not become attracted to dicks. Good lord the trans crowd knows how to expose themselves as homophobic pricks.
Tobi Hill Meyer now:
“Bottom line: there is a huge difference between what trans activists are saying when we talk about the cotton ceiling and what she claims we’re saying.”
Tobi Hill Meyer then:
“Drew Deveaux, Morgan M Page, and several others in the Toronto area recently just put on a conference called “no more apologies: cis and trans queer women coming/cumming together”. And it’s all about addressing inequity in the bedroom. And the way in which our community spaces can so much be sexual spaces, yet trans women’s inclusion only comes up to the bedroom’s door.”
Oh look, we all correctly understood what Tobi and Drew et al said!
OMG Cathy your on fire here. You are so cool. It’s good to see someone hitting back at trans and showing who they really are. Even as an intersex person, I like how you hit back every argument that trans try to make and pull on you. It truly shows how trans has no argument or theory. You are the coolest girls around the block. You really show why trans like to call anyone a bigot and transphobe when they don’t agree with them. Keep it up Cathy and never give up or give in to them. Go down swinging if you have to.
Also, hi. All of the idiots saying “OMG sex with a trans women doesn’t have to mean penetration!”
First of all, gross.
Second of all, here’s the thing. Lesbians don’t like dick. We don’t want to be around it, whether it is “penetrating” or not. YOU SOUND EXACTLY LIKE HETEROSEXUAL MEN WHO SAY THINGS LIKE “WE CAN JUST HOLD EACH OTHER.”
Again – LESBIANS have no obligation to like dick, in any form or fashion, to make Tobi or Drew or any trans woman feel “accepted.” Story, end of.
I cannot BELIEVE this is actually a discussion.
Uh… did you really just say “gross” to describe other lesbians’ sexuality? And that lesbians don’t like dick?
OK, facts – many trans women do not *have* anything called a dick, do not penetrate their partners, do not do any of the things that you are feverishly making up to gross yourself out with, and in the end, what trans women and their partners do in bed is not any of your business. But all of these facts aside, how long have you spent in lesbian communities, that (a) you’re unabashedly using the same tired slurs that have been thrown at lesbians for ages and (b) you have not noticed the absolute forest of silicone, plastic, glass, etc dicks present at spaces like Mich Fest and other centers of (predominately cis) lesbian culture?
Sigh… I will try to find time to return later, though I fear that you’re being purposely obtuse.
Yes, Ronan, I said gross. I find it INCREDIBLY IRRITATING to have this conversation and I find it GROSS.
YES LESBIANS DON’T LIKE SEX WITH MALES, WHO HAVE DICKS. HELLOOOOOOOO.
AND YES, WE DON’T ACTUALLY EVEN WANT TO BE SEXUALLY INTIMATE WITH MALES, HENCE MY PENETRATION POINT.
I AGREE, NONE OF MY BUSINESS – SO STOP MAKING IT A POLITICAL POINT THAT LESBIANS SHOULD HAVE SEX WITH TRANS WOMEN. JESUS.
“But all of these facts aside, how long have you spent in lesbian communities, that (a) you’re unabashedly using the same tired slurs that have been thrown at lesbians for ages and (b) you have not noticed the absolute forest of silicone, plastic, glass, etc dicks present at spaces like Mich Fest and other centers of (predominately cis) lesbian culture?”
YOU DO REALIZE THAT SEX TOYS ARE NOT MALE, RIGHT? YOU DO REALIZE THAT LESBIANS ARE FEMALE HOMOSEXUALS, WHICH MEANS WE DESIRE SEX WITH FEMALES. LIKE, HUMAN BEINGS. WTF?
OBTUSE – Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
NO, YOU JUST DON’T LIKE MY OPINION. THAT’S COOL. DON’T READ IT.
Cathy and friends… I don’t think there’s a trans woman on the planet who wants to sleep with you. OK? Transphobia is a just a really big turnoff.
And yes, it *is* transphobic to call a trans woman “not female” or “a dude” (seriously, people, you should not have needed help with that one), to label trans people’s bodies with words intended to cause emotional pain (e.g., “ladystick”), to say that you know better what being a woman means than a trans woman does, and to declare that trans women are inherently unattractive to cis lesbians. No amount of claiming to support gender non-conformity is going to get you out of that. You obviously don’t like trans women, and that’s obviously based solely on trans status. That’s transphobia. You obviously want trans women to remain a second-class group in women’s spaces. That’s transphobia too. You may as well own it. I guess you could go around saying, “I’m not transphobic, I just hate trans people,” but I’m not sure what the point would be.
You do not have to sleep with a trans woman in order to not be (or not appear to be) transphobic; you need to do is stop attacking trans women and their cis partners who are asking for simple, basic respect, and who are engaging in conversation with people who want to talk about that (you can go and do whatever you want while that conversation is happening – well, except for attack marginalized groups). As previously stated, you probably won’t find a trans woman who’s willing to sleep with you at this point, anyway. Does that hurt your feelings? I don’t really mean for it to, but I’m not sure if there’s a nicer way to say it.There is a meaner way, though – I could say that nobody wants to sleep with you because your body is gross and wrong and unappealing. That’s not what I think, and it’s not something I’d say to any woman. It’s exactly what you’re doing, though. And you’re doing it in the name of feminism.
There are many diverse and valid approaches to feminism, but if your approach is to say that other women’s bodies are gross, wrong, and unappealing, *you are doing it wrong.*
And for folks who are claiming that sexuality and sexual politics have no place in feminism, that lesbianism is defined by a dislike of any type of outie genitalia, or that cis dyke/trans dyke relationships haven’t been a part of lesbian communities for a really, really long time – all I can really say is that you seem to have missed huge parts of both the lesbian community and the feminist movement. Like, really, really huge. I’m honestly not sure how you could have managed it.
Dude – are you that porn sick that you think we care, that this is about anyone wanting to fuck anyone? Is that what they teach you at porn school?
Here’s the deal lesbians don’t want dick. We don’t give a shit about it, we aren’t interested. The idea that lesbians owe a duty to consider trans women as sexual partners or face the bigot label is anti-lesbian.
Go be bisexual. Live your life.
“And yes, it *is* transphobic to call a trans woman “not female” or “a dude” ”
Nobody buys your crazy shit anymore. Go educate yourself about human evolution and biology before you come here. Good lord we are talking to people who lost their grip on reality.
“(seriously, people, you should not have needed help with that one)”
Seriously, you have NO scientic explanation why they are female. You need help.
” to label trans people’s bodies with words intended to cause emotional pain”
The oppressors are in pain! How sad! But after sending death threats to people who disagree with them they will be happy again. 🙂
“that trans women are inherently unattractive to cis lesbians”
Since when are lesbians attracted to males?
” No amount of claiming to support gender non-conformity is going to get you out of that”
No amount of calling lesbians bigots for not wanting to fuck with males is going to make them do it.
“you need to do is stop attacking trans women”
You need to stop attacking lesbians. But we all know you dudes can’t.
Hahaha! This is coming from a trans ally! Hahaha!
” As previously stated, you probably won’t find a trans woman who’s willing to sleep with you at this point, anyway”
Why? They aren’t attracted to males in the first place duhhh. It’s all about fucking isn’t it?
” Does that hurt your feelings?”
Yeah ma fellow lesbians aren’t you hurt that you never will suck dicks?
” I could say that nobody wants to sleep with you because your body is gross and wrong and unappealing. ”
By nobody you mean – NO DUDE IN DRAG. That’s great!! 😀
“It’s exactly what you’re doing, though. And you’re doing it in the name of feminism.”
Never heard of homosexuality? Are you THAT stupid? Good lord such homophobia! You will never be brave enough to say so much shit to gay men. I tell you what lesbians don’t buy your crazy ideology too.
” but if your approach is to say that other women’s bodies are gross, wrong, and unappealing,”
They aren’t attracted to males. Can’t you get it right?
“you are doing it wrong.”
Does lesbianism hurts you so much? They are doing it right! That’s how it works.
” that lesbianism is defined by a dislike of any type of outie genitalia,”
You are full of homophobia.
“huge parts of both the lesbian community and the feminist movement. Like, really, really huge”
Not that huge actually. Not irl.
“I’m honestly not sure how you could have managed it.”
Lol this is coming from someone who wants to rewrite homosexuality with his sick and twisted ideology.
Get lost you anti gay oppressor.
to say that you know better what being a woman means than a trans woman does
Did you actually just say that?!
Um, yeah, I can unequivocally, with 100% certainty say that I know better what it is to be a woman because I was born female, raised female and have/had female reproductive organs, naturally occuring female hormones and by golly, I’ve even vaginally delivered a female infant who will also grow up to know better what being a woman means than any m2t.
Seriously, what are you people smoking?
RONAN – I AM SORRY BIOLOGY IS TRANSPHOBIC. LIFE IS HARD SOMETIMES. LET ME GET YOU A TINY VIOLIN TO PLAY.
Also, being CRITICAL of your shitty metaphor is not ATTACKING trans women or their cis partners. Cotton Ceiling is a god awful metaphor. Framing lesbian sexuality as bigoted is bullshit. Framing sex with trans women as a political obligation is bullshit.
Well said and it’s sad that Trans can’t accept the biological reality that stares right in front of them.
you have not noticed the absolute forest of silicone, plastic, glass, etc dicks present at spaces like Mich Fest and other centers of (predominately cis) lesbian culture?
I haven’t noticed anything of the sort, during any of the years I went to Michfest, except at a vendor table (that most of us avoided) and on flyers posted in the Janes (that we tore down). So that’s just a big ol’ lie right there.
Oh that’s the one who claimed they were ‘butch’ and crashed our Female Identified Butch workshop, while Butch Voices did NOT have one for us…we had to get our own room in the hotel and have one, but Tobi had one for ‘her’ ‘butch’ transsisters…which Butch Voices adoringly allowed…..sheesh, everybody wants to claim Butch territory…so they failed as Butch males, eh???So now they gotta claim they are Butch ‘females’????NO! And if you have a ‘ladystick’ no WAY you’re a Lesbian or Female! It’s the Emperor with no clothes all over again, and us Dykes refuse to play into your delusion or smoke and mirrors…..we worship the Yonis of our choice, Yonis that have been on those women ALL their lives, not their ‘ladysticks’!
WHO DIED AND MADE “GENDER” BOSS?
Gender is not MORE IMPORTANT than sex.
I’m finding the real-time rewriting of the Cotton Ceiling history utterly fascinating.
We’ve gone from this:
Basically, it means that cis queer women will be friends with us and talk day and night about trans rights and ending transmisogyny, but will still not consider us viable sexual partners. – Official CC Workshop Language
You are the ones projecting non-existent sexual desires onto us. Stop it, it’s inappropriate and misogynistic… notice I didn’t say transmisogynistic here (although it is) because projecting sexual desires onto any woman against her will is rape mentality. – Ladystick Owner, Leftygirl
Not to mention the 12 year old boy tactic of *well I didn’t even want it anyway, stupid* sour-grapes bullshit. Reversals and projections just like you’d expect from any garden variety, narcissicistic spoiled brat.