NGLTF used to recognize women-only space and didn’t actively and relentlessly seek to destroy it.
What happened?
Trans happened.
Trans activists have turned women-only space as something akin to Nazism or the KKK.
That’s right – Women wanting to be with Women is akin to being a Nazi and a Klan member.
Serious hyperbole. And seriously effective at shaming Women into working for Trans.
Ever wonder why, if WBW are Nazis or Klan Members, Trans activists are so desperate to get in our space?
Think about it.
Why would Men want to dilute women-only space?
Why would Men want to dilute women-only political organizing?
Hmmm….
Oh, I know!
It’s much better for Men to get Women to work in Men’s interests rather than in our own interest.
So although NGLTF knows how to capitalize on a political meme, know that it’s all window dressing for the Master they serve.
It starts with P…
And the Patriarchy is Relentless.
You think I just don't understand, but I don't believe you. 
All the lesbians I know want MORE not less lesbian space! All oppressed groups are recognized as wanting space separate form the oppressor. Oppressors don’t own up to who they are, men don’t respect women’s spaces anywhere. The trans invasion is just the newest trick in the book.
So why do men invade Michigan if Michigan women are so NAZI-like. I’m certainly not trying to bust into the KKK meetings or skinhead male groups or even a male motorcycle gang. I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near NAZIS, so this name calling by trans is the dead give-away. It is a tactic to shame women into letting them into WBW space, and especially something as foundational as Michigan. They hate the fact that lesbians created such a long standing institution, one of the only women only continueous events out there.
NGLTF just has to be called out on their infamy, but I am seeing real progress across the land. I am seeing young lesbians wanting to create new all lesbian space! And I know they don’t mean men in dresses with penis are welcome.
The game is up, the Jews don’t want to bust into the NAZI party, I don’t want to be “included” in a kkk rally, but the penis people or the eunich people want entry into women’s lands…. whom they call hating and NAZI-like! Bingo!! Gotch-ya in your failure of logic. You are men who simply want access to lesbian bodies, you can’t stand the fact that WBW lesbian exist, you want to dominate us, invade NYcity dyke march, get on the rape crisis centering counseling team… invade locker rooms where girls change, flash your penis in the shower.
We live in unfortunate times in the GLBTWTF Community, but, yes, it’s obvious to many young Women that something is not right when men demand access to women-only space. Thank the goddess for them.
This is so true. Women need to never been any other group’s “ladies auxiliary” ever again.
You want a WBW group, set one up yourself. Other people who aren’t as narrow minded accept that trans women ARE WOMEN. You don’t like it, you don’t have to be part of it.
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Thanks, sir. We have. And then you come along with your dick. Stop doing that, sir.
Hi Cathy,
I’d like to be courteous and introduce myself and be honest and upfront about things. I don’t expect you to vet this comment though approval, but it was the most convenient way of getting in touch.
I wanted to let you know I did write a piece about you and Radfem over on my blog. It’s not really me to go pontificating from a hidey hole to people already agree with me, so I try to do the fair thing and give people a chance to ignore or respond. If you chose to, I don’t block dissenting opinions; I am a firm believer that no woman should ever be silenced, and my writings don’t tend to attract a lot of interest from men.
I am a MtF transsexual in active transition, and currently waiting for the “real life test” clock to hit 365 days so I can get my surgery, and wanted to be up front about that as well. While I understand your feelings and positions on trans people, I’m still not really clear on the real “why” of it. I’ve read a lot of esoteric philosophy over on Radfem, much of seems to be shoehorned into a position of reason to validate the opinion, but leaves me unclear as to the root cause of the anti-trans sentiment. The only reason it bothers me at all is that in all other areas we share a strikingly similar opinion.
The overall philosophical similarity right up to the grand divergence that appears to center around my existence makes me wonder if dialog is possible and common ground may be found. Of course I think it’s equally possible that this situation mirrors my old head beating debates with creationists. Their position based on an old story told by desert nomads was going to trump even the grandest of reasoning or evidence, so I dropped it as a lost cause. I don’t know if that is the case here, but thought I would give it a try.
I’m over at michellelianna.wordpress.com and you are welcome to visit and comment or ignore all together, but at least you have fair warning that I’m going to pick at this until I fully understand.
My best,
Michelle Wolf
That’s nice.
It’s pretty clear you have never actually read anything on this blog. 1. I approve lots of comments from morons like you who babble on and on as if you are the first man in the world to have the “grand thoughts” you have. and 2. Seriously, if you can’t figure out the “problem” we have, you’re an idiot. It’s not complicated stuff here.
What you are doing is known as mansplaining. Look it up: http://mansplaintransplain.wordpress.com/
Yeah, to be totally honest I didn’t check out any of the comments and made assumptions there, so shame on me for that.
I probably haven’t been very clear. I do understand the problem you have, just not how you got there. I understand why it’s a problem at this very moment – there is a lot of super nasty back and forth that built up into a cozy hate/hate relationship that is perpetuating itself nicely. We hear something and feel invalidated and push back, you feel your original assumption is correct that trans are really yet another unwanted patriarchal intrusion into the female world and get nasty, then it escapes the bits and bytes and real life harassment starts to occur. It’s all bad. I don’t know if there is any helping it, but since it doesn’t benefit either side, it’s worth trying. Yes, I got sucked into as well, got my venting out and going to stop that now. My big concern is that the patriarchy neither of us is comfortable with is probably loving this and I hate that.
I do understand your original position, but let’s go with the me being a moron thing for a sec. While I totally get your strong feelings on male intrusion, and I do understand your not accepting trans as women, or maybe female (seen that hair split a few times), with all the real proven everyday instances of male intrusion as no shit, five alarm threats, why the disproportionate focus on trans? Remember, I’m a moron, so it can be assumed that I haven’t had that big cartoon floating light bulb ‘ah-ha!’ moment yet. With all the real deal shitheads out there who would be just tickled to see us both go away, or better yet deep into no longer breathing territory, how did trans become enemy number one? That is the part that isn’t adding up for me.
Just curious, if you feel like answering. This is totally hypothetical because I don’t see it happening in our lifetimes, but just suppose real inarguable validated and verified scientific information came out that proved conclusively that transsexuals truly were born with the brain of one gender and the plumbing of another? I’m just wondering if the overall reception would be, “welcome, my poor deformed sisters!”, or more of a, “sucks to be you, but having that thing attached for even one second contaminates you forever.”
Finally, (yeah, I know I go on) I know you are used to attacks from my side, so I totally get not receiving a “oh, I’m so glad you wrote!” reply. Lots of mistrust now on both sides. That aside, is a constructive dialog possible? We may never agree on whether I’m really a woman or not, even after my surgery. We may never agree on whether I’m supposed to be using the same bathroom as you. I think we can, however, help broker a cease fire if we can reach a mutual understanding that we are not the real threats to each other.
Sorry, I know I said “finally” and all. I checked out ‘mansplaining’ and read the “what is it”. Yes, that sounds about right. Yes, I probably do this at times, but trying not to. If you are born with a penis, they pretty much raise you to do this, and it’s way too easy to slip back into when attempting to make a point.
tl; dr.
speak less. read more. cheers.
start here http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/the-neo-vagina-monologues/
Michelle Wolf,
“I think it’s equally possible that this situation mirrors my old head beating debates with creationists.”
You are correct that the situation is analogous to the science/creationist debate. However, what you don’t seem to realize is that it’s the trans community who are akin to the creationists, because their entire ethos is based solely on personal feelings and discredited beliefs. Science is not on your side, you are a devoted disciple of trans female creationism.
MtF’s believe that genital surgery actually changes a penis into a vagina. This phallic fallacy is indistinguishable to the concept of transubstantiation found in Catholicism. Transubstantiation is the belief that the bread and wine used for communion literally become the body and blood of Christ, not figuratively, but literally. So, at some point in their religious ritual, somewhere between the blessing and the consumption, the food substances are mystically transformed into something else. It makes one wonder at what exact moment in the genital rearrangement surgery does a penis magically become a vagina? Is it at the first incision, or is it when the skin gets pulled off of the shaft, or maybe it happens when the penile remnants are unceremoniously shoved up inside the man’s body? Here’s a video, perhaps someone can tell me when it happens.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2012/04/video-of-sex-change-surgery-male-to-female-gender/
I will think of a man as a woman when he changes his XY sex chromosomes to XX, when his DNA reads female, when his body grows his own female reproductive organs from the inside out (not lab grown, transplanted organs), when the possibility of impregnation looms over his head, in other words, when the changes made are more than just cosmetic. Being a woman is a state of body, not a state of mind. Until then, Michelle, you’re just a Wolf in women’s clothing.
trans are for sure the creationists. http://bugbrennan.com/2012/11/08/rational-misogyny/
Hi Becky,
OK, I’m more clear now on the difference of opinion. Your POV rests on a basis of genetic purity while mine is unfortunately more esoteric. I don’t agree at all that science has discredited a medical basis for transsexualism. We can both easily go to the NIH medpubs site and find corroborating evidence for our opinions (link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=transsexual%20brain) All research begins with a premise, usually opinion based though researchers hate to admit that, and it takes many years and hundreds of studies to come to anything resembling a conclusion. This simply hasn’t been done yet. I’ll even go so far that when all is said and done, you might be 100% right. I don’t think so, but I don’t claim any ability to predict the future.
Just to clarify, I’m not under any impression that transubstantiation will occur as function of my surgery. This is why many of us refer to them as neo-vaginas. While cosmetically identical and formed of the same base tissue types, I’m well aware that mine will never lead to where it should. I do have feelings about that, but have to work with what is.
The genetics argument is tricky. Many of us are XXY and unfortunately the Y took over sex organ development. To be perfectly honest, my knowledge of the field isn’t strong enough to argue intelligently.
We can debate this forever, and it would probably be fun, but at the end of the day it’s like having two people claiming “my orange juice tastes better than yours”. I’m OK with that. In truth, I don’t need you to believe me. My personal conviction on the matter is strong enough to lead me to make the changes I have that ultimately results in surgery (I have seen several film clips and yes, still very much want this). We may disagree that the sheer level of difficulty in every single aspect of transition speaks to the overwhelming power behind the self conviction, but I think it passes the acid test of common sense. No one would do this for anything but the most compelling reasons.
Getting to the main point. We will probably agree to disagree, and that’s fine. I’m not going to try to convince you that your POV is wrong, and I’m not asking you to even believe me, or think of me as a woman. Of course I would like that, but all I really needed was to be sure myself and I have that. The women and even men who now accept me as female is really just gravy.
What I don’t get is why this is so fundamentally important to you. I understand I philosophically offend you by existing, but I’m philosophically offended by a lot of things I really don’t spend much time thinking about, much less actively denouncing. What makes trans a special case and large focus? We just had an election where the party that certainly seems fundamentally opposed to women got almost half the votes. From there we have rapists, child molesters, male supremists, fundamental religious groups with the numbers to promote real world policy and election results. I think we can both agree that this is bad for both of us.
Finally, to reiterate, I’m not asking for you believe me, like me, or accept me. Trans rights or lack thereof is going to play out on the national stage. Either way things swing, it’s really not going to matter a whole lot in either of our lives. I ventured over here into a known openly hostile place with my hands open and in front of me. I’m sorry if this is viewed as an intrusion, but I thought it would show my sincerity rather than inviting you over to my web, where you are most welcome. I only want to know if there is common ground to work on the more pressing threats to both of our interests. Peace.
My best,
Michelle
You are viewed as intrusive because you are a two-faced asshole, “Michelle.” Cheers.
“The genetics argument is tricky. Many of us are XXY and unfortunately the Y took over sex organ development. To be perfectly honest, my knowledge of the field isn’t strong enough to argue intelligently.”
It isn’t tricky at all. We have all seen many of the M2T try to claim they were XXY or some other variant of intersex, but there are no studies that back such claims. And the whole ‘brain’ stuff also seems to be something that, gee, only can be checked once someone is dead and dissected.
Are there some persons who can be medically shown to have been XXY? Sure, and nobody is going to argue that. But you don’t see all of them trying to claim that they should have been something other than declared at birth.
What we see here, michellelianna, is more proselytizing by someone (you) who wants to essentially demand that we grant them entry into space to which they don’t have legitimate access, specifically women-only space. And yet despite claiming an apparent willingness to try and figure out why we don’t want males in our space, you turn around with the same breath and basically give us the figurative pat on the head to tell us how we are supposed to be reacting. The real irony here, as with Colleen Francis and every one else that preceded you in trying to shoehorn your way into access, is that for someone who claims to have a ‘female brain,’ you damned sure don’t grasp WHY women take umbrage with your intrusion.
The one saving grace, if any, to the lunacy being foisted upon women by the M2T is that we may actually see laws passed that make sense and that end the ability of males to be legally declared as female and that end the ability of males to enter women-only space simply because they want to claim their speshul snowflake status.
XXY is Klinefelters. It only affects MALES and renders you sterile, generally. http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/disorders/whataregd/klinefelter/
“Michelle” Wolf, do you have children with your ex? I think you do, so please don’t lie here.
It’s ok that you are a man who thinks he’s a woman. Good for you. The *problem* (in a nutshell, ha) is that 1. you argue that your rights trump ours and 2. you pretend you are actually female.
Cheers.
“This is why many of us refer to them as neo-vaginas.”
It’s just an inverted penis, Wolf, so if you truly don’t see it as a vagina why call it a new one? Why not remove the word vagina from your description entirely? I have never heard a MtF refer to their freshly rearranged penile and scrotal tissues as anything other than vagina, or slang for vagina, such as the bizarre phrase, “Frankenpussy.”
By the way Wolf, here’s a link to an interesting blog written by one of Cathy’s regular readers named Nicky. He actually has an intersexed condition and has much insight to lend to the discussion.
http://kallmannssyndrome.wordpress.com/
OK, I was going to bow out once you made it clear I’m intruding here, but you asked me a direct question, so I’ll keep this brief. Well, as brief as I can.
First, good info on Klinefelters – as I said, my knowledge of the area is limited. Also, my earlier wording may have suggested that I am claiming this. I’m not. I have never been genetically tested, and have no understanding there. I concede that I should have left this area alone rather than throw something out there and disavow knowledge.
Yes, I do have one child with my ex and it’s public knowledge, so not clear on the implication. He’s on my lap on my Facebook profile, so no secrets there. I’m not going to mention his name or my ex, and I respectfully request you do the same as they are not part of this discussion – they already have enough to bear, you know?
Your POV is now more clear, and with the exchange I think I understand that this issue does trump the others I’ve mentioned as the clear and pressing danger. Let me know if I’m incorrect on that. To be clear, I will never argue that my rights should trump those of anyone, but I think your position is that our rights, in and of themselves, degrade yours? We probably aren’t going to agree on this. As for pretending I’m female, I disagree on these grounds. My stance is that I am female, and all of my actions to date since transition have been wholly consistent with those of a person who is of the belief and mindset that they are in fact female, and therefore “pretend” is inapplicable. If you want to say I’m delusional, that’s fine. Really though, it’s all just semantics.
As I mentioned before, we disagree and I don’t think we are going to agree on certain issues no matter what arguments come up. I think it’s pretty clear that attempting to engage is unlikely at this point without a lot of rancor and name calling. I’m just not looking to go there; it’s not my communication style, so I respectfully withdraw from the discussion and wish you all the best. Sincerely, I have no hate for you and admire your passionate energy.
Finally, just to be clear, Michelle is my legal name; it’s on my driver’s license, social security card, etc. We may disagree on my gender, but as a JD you know a legal name is a legal name.
Sure, “Michelle.”
Take care!
“I concede that I should have left this area alone rather than throw something out there and disavow knowledge.”
Oh, hell…why be different from the rest of your ilk when it comes to making shit up and hoping nobody calls you on it. The M2T has a lengthy history of doing just that…you are just following the path others trampled before you. They were skilled at trampling since they have been doing it to women’s spaces for years…
“As for pretending I’m female, I disagree on these grounds. My stance is that I am female, and all of my actions to date since transition have been wholly consistent with those of a person who is of the belief and mindset that they are in fact female, and therefore “pretend” is inapplicable. If you want to say I’m delusional, that’s fine. Really though, it’s all just semantics.”
Sounds like delusion to me. After all, you aren’t female. And all the believing in the world won’t change biological reality for you, not matter WHAT your ‘mindset’ might be.
Legal name changes don’t change biology nor should they EVER grant access to sex-segregated spaces or otherwise convey any benefit as a result of speshul snowflake status (except maybe in magical unicorn land).
Here is Michael’s story, I am surmising, because all of their stories are pretty much “the same.”
Born male, raised male, went to male prep school, went to college, got a job in a male-dominated field, enjoyed that male priv, decided he was a woman after fathering children, donning a dress and a bad wig makes him feel like he’s got stuff to say to women, barges in on women and blabs at them while simultaneously shitting all over women on his crappy blog, and we are supposed to THANK him for making the effort?
This is male priv and entitlement. It’s BORING. NEXT.
WOW. Talk about mansplaining and dominating a comment thread with BS… o_0
And, yes, BORING. We’ve heard it ALLLL before, dudes.
[…] Ok, but surely NGLTF has some recognition that Women have a right to establish boundaries, right? I mean, they used to support women-only space. […]